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What Supreme Court ruling could mean for healthcare

Arnold

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What Supreme Court ruling could mean for healthcare
WASHINGTON | Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:34pm EST

(Reuters) - The Supreme Court agreed on Monday to decide the fate of President Barack Obama's healthcare reform law in the coming year, charting a course that will have an impact on the 2012 election campaign, the law, the healthcare industry and the states.

At issue is whether Congress overstepped its powers by requiring that all Americans buy health insurance by 2014 or pay a penalty, a provision known as the individual mandate.

The Obama administration asked the highest U.S. court to uphold the insurance provision, the centerpiece of the law, after 26 states separately asked that the entire law be struck down. Oral arguments would take place in March.

Here is a look at what the case could mean on several fronts:

* NOVEMBER 2012 ELECTIONS - The court is likely to issue a ruling by July, in the midst of a presidential election campaign in which Obama, a Democrat, seeks a second four-year term. A ruling striking down the law known as the Affordable Care Act would be a huge blow for Obama months before the election and a boost for his Republican opponents who derisively describe the healthcare reforms as "Obamacare."

Some have attributed the huge Republican gains in the November 2010 congressional elections to voter discontent over the law, Obama's signature piece of domestic policy. The president could try to persuade Congress to pass a legislative fix for the "individual mandate," a legal requirement that all Americans have healthcare, but he would face a tough time getting it through a Congress where Democrats no longer hold a majority in both houses as they did when the law passed in March 2010.

* THE LAW - The individual mandate is one of the more controversial issues. The Supreme Court could follow the example of one appeals court by maintaining the bulk of the reforms but throwing out the individual mandate. White House officials argue it is only by requiring healthy people to purchase insurance that they can help pay for reforms, including a provision that individuals with pre-existing medical conditions cannot be refused coverage.

* HEALTHCARE - Throwing out the individual mandate could influence how the healthcare industry approaches the reforms in the law, especially when considering how to price insurance policies. The mandate had guaranteed a large and steady pool of insurance purchasers. Some consumer groups argue a repeal of the individual mandate would lead to higher insurance premiums for Americans as a whole, as those without coverage would continue to use the emergency room as their only healthcare, shifting costs onto the insured. Higher premiums could also reduce the number of those choosing to purchase insurance, undoing the law's promise to extend health insurance to the more than 30 million Americans currently without it.

* SMALL BUSINESSES - Small businesses are eligible for tax credits to help provide insurance benefits to their workers. They can also have more choice in insurance coverage, since state exchanges must have at least two multi-state health plans. However, businesses with more than 50 employees that do not offer health insurance by 2014, when universal coverage is set to kick in, will have to pay a fee per employee. Small firms argue the law does not address underlying high insurance costs and instead forces new requirements and taxes on companies, raising the cost of doing business.

* BIG COMPANIES - The healthcare law includes fines for larger businesses where some employees seek subsidized coverage on state insurance exchanges that are to be up and running by 2014. It also penalizes companies that fail to provide minimum health coverage levels that will be determined by the law's essential benefits rule. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, corporate America's biggest lobbying group, supports the repeal of the healthcare law, which it blames for burdensome regulation and additional penalties and taxes.

* DRUGMAKERS - Those in the industry have generally been on board with the new legislation, which will give them millions more patients who need drugs, hospitals and doctors. Most industry representatives are also wary of further legal uncertainty over the law that complicates planning. The pharmaceutical industry will have to pay more than $2 billion a year in taxes to help pay for the healthcare overhaul. They also have committed to offering certain drug rebates and discounts, expecting to balance those out with a boost from newly insured people. The repeal of the individual mandate would skew that math. Rather than working to repeal the whole thing, drugmakers and others in the health industry are contesting specific provisions in the law, including a Medicare advisory board aimed at cost-cutting and another body that will closely compare the effectiveness of medications as well as other treatments.

* MEDICAL DEVICE COMPANIES - Similar to the drugmakers, medical device companies also face higher taxes starting in 2013 to help pay for the law. Some companies are vigorously working to repeal the 2.3 percent sales tax.

* PROVIDERS - The healthcare law is expected to give hospitals a flood of revenue from newly insured patients. It also cuts the cost of emergency care for uninsured patients, which hospitals are legally bound to provide. Hospitals are banking on that offsetting the payment cuts they have already started taking under the law. Obama's legislation increases payments to physicians, although hospitals get lower payments from Medicare and Medicaid.

* THE STATES - The states are charged with carrying out a bulk of the healthcare reforms and many of those suing are still setting up state-run exchanges for health insurance and other elements by expanding their Medicaid programs to include millions of people now uninsured and setting up health insurance exchanges for uninsured people with incomes too high to qualify for Medicaid services. Along with worrying about the costs of implementation, the states say the law usurps their rights. Earlier this year, states that criticized the law, such as Missouri, adopted an attitude of "if you can't beat them, join them." They began setting up exchanges and moving ahead on implementation in hopes of influencing the reforms and limiting the reach of the law. But of late, they have taken a harder line, with Kansas sending back to the federal government a grant it had received to create an exchange.
 
:coffee:
 
or we can just do nothing and in 30-40 years health care premiums will be more than the annual salary of what's left of the middle class in the US..
 
or we can just do nothing and in 30-40 years health care premiums will be more than the annual salary of what's left of the middle class in the US..

for small busineses like me it is eating up my profits as the second highest overhead, now approaching more than half a mill a year due to one partner getting open heart valve replacement, and two nurses with breast cancer in their forties ( that's half a million in wage suppression guys). My premiums went up 300% in my ten years as partner. I have no legal obligation since I have less than 50 employees to provide health insurance but no one would work for a doctor that doesn't. And premiums are the same whether I was a plastic surgeon raking in some serious dough or a pediatrician seeing 80% medicaid and barely paying off their student loans.

in this climate, no start up entrepreneurs can afford to start up their own companies and attract serious talent when they can't even offer this as a benefit. Individuals have no chance getting decent coverage if they have even one serious preexisting ( kiss your insulin pump goodbye type I diabetics since 5 yrs of age.)
 
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for small busineses like me it is eating up my profits as the second highest overhead, now approaching more than half a mill a year due to one partner getting open heart valve replacement, and two nurses with breast cancer in their forties ( that's half a million in wage suppression guys). My premiums went up 300% in my ten years as partner. I have no legal obligation since I have less than 50 employees to provide health insurance but no one would work for a doctor that doesn't. And premiums are the same whether I was a plastic surgeon raking in some serious dough or a pediatrician seeing 80% medicaid and barely paying off their student loans.

in this climate, no start up entrepreneurs can afford to start up their own companies and attract serious talent when they can't even offer this as a benefit. Individuals have no chance getting decent coverage if they have even one serious preexisting ( kiss your insulin pump goodbye type I diabetics since 5 yrs of age.)

unfortunately for the US we have the largest population of the mathematically challenged in the OECD. belief systems which capitalism is (it is an economic system not a science) takes precedence over hard sciences such as the study of economics. eventually it seems the US will go the way of Poland with their 2 class system of the wealthy that live in the cities that enjoy democracy, the arts, good education, etc. and the poor that live in the rural areas outside the cities which don't have access to any of those things. in time history will show that many were 100% wrong.
 
i'm not a big fan of obama care but those who think our system is not seriously broken and that a monopoly ( five big five insurance companies corner the market) doesn't exist and there is true "free market" in health care are delusional.
 
I say keep Obamacare intact so we can ship more jobs to Asia and Mexico. :coffee:

I'm curious, how is healthcare for adults the responsibility of said adult's employers?

Please, that's ridiculous, the only way we could compete with them is if we lowered the minimum wage to $1 an hour, removed all sick and paid time off, gutted benefits, and upped the work week to 90 hours a week. If we did that, who would buy these big firms' products, the Chinese kid making $90 a week?

I wouldn't say it's the employer's responsibility and it's not. They can choose to purchase it or save a shit ton of money by paying the fine, its a choice. I think option B saves them a ton of money.
 
for small busineses like me it is eating up my profits as the second highest overhead, now approaching more than half a mill a year due to one partner getting open heart valve replacement, and two nurses with breast cancer in their forties ( that's half a million in wage suppression guys). My premiums went up 300% in my ten years as partner. I have no legal obligation since I have less than 50 employees to provide health insurance but no one would work for a doctor that doesn't. And premiums are the same whether I was a plastic surgeon raking in some serious dough or a pediatrician seeing 80% medicaid and barely paying off their student loans.

in this climate, no start up entrepreneurs can afford to start up their own companies and attract serious talent when they can't even offer this as a benefit. Individuals have no chance getting decent coverage if they have even one serious preexisting ( kiss your insulin pump goodbye type I diabetics since 5 yrs of age.)

And the new healthcare law does very little to fix this. Basically it is pay some insurance company a big premium like she is now to keep good employees around OR say screw my employees who make my business and me profitable while paying a fine. This does nothing to protect peoples ability to get/have healthcare through an employer. It forces people to have to buy it through the government which I know will not be as good, they can't even get a budget together let alone manage healthcare.

The fact that there is very little mention of tort reform and and interstate insurance selling that allows business' to pool risk and buy as a larger group from anywhere in the US, shows how little attention to real cost drivers went into Barry and Nancy's baby. This law was forced down everyone's throat, more and more problems are constantly found with it and it does very little to help. All I would keep now is the mandate that companies can't deny people with pre-existing conditions.
 
unfortunately for the US we have the largest population of the mathematically challenged in the OECD. belief systems which capitalism is (it is an economic system not a science) takes precedence over hard sciences such as the study of economics. eventually it seems the US will go the way of Poland with their 2 class system of the wealthy that live in the cities that enjoy democracy, the arts, good education, etc. and the poor that live in the rural areas outside the cities which don't have access to any of those things. in time history will show that many were 100% wrong.

Your cynicism is getting old LAM. If you want to throw in the towel on the US go right ahead or better yet, man the F up and run for office so your voice can be heard. Its obvious you are convinced you know what is right for this country just like the rest of the oligarchs running the joint now, be the voice of reason in your state. Get into state government then see about the national one, maybe write a column in a newspaper. At this point you have to feel like you are just pissing into the wind. :hmmm:
 
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And the new healthcare law does very little to fix this. Basically it is pay some insurance company a big premium like she is now to keep good employees around OR say screw my employees who make my business and me profitable while paying a fine. This does nothing to protect peoples ability to get/have healthcare through an employer. It forces people to have to buy it through the government which I know will not be as good, they can't even get a budget together let alone manage healthcare.

The fact that there is very little mention of tort reform and and interstate insurance selling that allows business' to pool risk and buy as a larger group from anywhere in the US, shows how little attention to real cost drivers went into Barry and Nancy's baby. This law was forced down everyone's throat, more and more problems are constantly found with it and it does very little to help. All I would keep now is the mandate that companies can't deny people with pre-existing conditions.


I already know the obama/romney care ( they are identical) since I actually read 800 pages of the legislation to give a talk at Emory so I don't need a lecture. we need national health insurance, taiwan, very capitalistic and the same fragmented bloated administrative insurance system did great with this transition. My cousin, a dermatologist, was able to reduce his staff to 15 to just him, secretary and nurse again. He works for himself, not the government ( not socialized medicine) He gets paid less but brings home the same or more money and actually goes home early since he's not there till 11pm doing piecemeal paperwork for insurance companies, refaxing replicate forms for the 5th time justifying his treatment care. His two children graduating college can now look for a job they like , rather than a subpar position so they can get good health care benefits. as for tort reform, many of the lawsuits are uninsured trying to recover costs or help pay for medical bills once their private plan had used up their lifetime limit ( which ppaca got rid of). As chief of medicine at my hospital, the uninsured comprised the majority of medical lawsuits. This pool would be reduced tremendously.

I spend 88 grand a doctor per year ( we have 5 docs) for adminstrative staff to deal with the 300 private plans we accept. I have one staff member to bill medicare and we get paid in two weeks, the average private plans delays payments 3-6 months. Medicare advantage ( privatized medicare) is even worse.

How this for micky mouse, my brother's aetna pos plan says that laws of subrogation state that a third party should pay for his assault by a homeless schizophrenic that cost him 5 grand of emergency hospitalization. I have written letters verifying that the homeless shcizophrenic has no financial assets and that his employer who is paying 11 grand a year to aetna pos needs to get his employee's medical bills paid. This was six months ago. My brother had the 5 grand and paid it so he would not go into collections and is now trying to get his refund.
 
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Taiwan's Single Payer System: A Phenomenal Success! | Physicians for a National Health Program

Taiwan's single-payer NHI system enabled Taiwan to manage health spending inflation and that the resulting savings largely offset the incremental cost of covering the previously uninsured. .....When a society is seriously concerned about its people having equitable access to care and about pooling health risks efficiently, the free market is not a good choice. Evidence from the United States amply supports this conclusion also....
. The total increase in national health spending between 1995 and 2000 was not more than the amount that Taiwan would have spent, based on historical trends.
Additionally, Taiwan did not experience any reported increase in queues or waiting time under the NHI.
...

One notable result that should interest Americans is that Taiwan's universal insurance single-payer system greatly reduced transaction costs and also offered the information and tools to manage health care costs. Alex Preker, a leading health economist at the World Bank, came to a similar conclusion from his research of OECD countries. http://www.healthaffairs.org/1130_abstract_c.php?ID=http://www.healthaff...
.
 
Your cynicism is getting old LAM. If you want to throw in the towel on the US go right ahead or better yet, man the F up and run for office so your voice can be heard. Its obvious you are convinced you know what is right for this country just like the rest of the oligarchs running the joint now, be the voice of reason in your state. Get into state government then see about the national one, maybe write a column in a newspaper. At this point you have to feel like you are just pissing into the wind. :hmmm:

what gets old for me is seeing people using science, data and facts in some parts of their lives and totally disregarding these in others it is hard for my brain to even begin to attempt to understand this degree of rationalization. you can not go backwards to go forwards as many seem to want to believe but just as many just want to go backwards in time.

politicians in DC are simply a representation of the general public in the US. which is not nor has it ever been a truly "United" country, maybe for 2 weeks after 9-11. You do not see politicians or economic policy in any other democratic country anywhere in the world that intentionally targets their poor and we all know why this only occurs in the US as we all do not share the same heritage.

until the people change nothing will truly change in DC and this is not very realistic as there is a very strong genetic component involved along with modeling after the parents, family and sociological impact which is the sum of various social forces, etc. when it comes to politics in the US.

I have an older sister who was briefly involved in politics in the bay area many years ago. she does not have the hard outer shell that is needed to survive in US politics and did not last long. I have a huge problem with self-imposed ignorance and stupidity they are my nemesis along with a severe hatred for belief systems because of this I feel I am disqualified for that line of work.
 
I actually read 800 pages of the legislation to give a talk at Emory so I don't need a lecture.
:bow: I just love the consistent shameless self-flattery that seems to recur in everyone of BW's posts.

I say, why not just get the fed govt out of bed with big insurance altogether and let the consumer shop for health coverage the same way we do for life, home, & auto insurance. I see no logic in the fact that I can't call up a company in CA and ask for a quote, then shop around with companies in various states to get the best premium. As it stands now, we basically have two choices for coverage - the govt or our employer. We already have Medicare and Medicaid to cover retirees and the poor. It would seem to me that ending collusion b/w the fed govt and big insurance, thus forcing health insurance companies to compete nationwide, would dramatically reduce premiums without a new $2 trillion layer of govt bureaucracy.
 
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you are clueless about how free market forces dont work with health care, especially health insurance.

all other industrialzed nations have found this out and taiwan, the ultimate capitlastic country, where the insurance companies were not in bed with the politicians figured this out as well.

i own and manage other business ( not just my practice) so you are talking to a shameless, self serving capitalist and you cannot manage costs/ profits, overhead etc. like you do with other businesses and be competative.

http://www.pnhp.org/reader-old/Section 8 - Myth Busters/Myths as Barriers (Geyman).pdf
sample read on why you cannot apply free market forces to health care.

There are whole books on this stuff.

and if you ever read my other posts, i hated the obama plan too. and yes we both agree that the monopoly of health insurance companies needs to be broken but that wont happen since they are in bed with the politicians as you mentioned. We both agree on that. but that was not the case in Taiwan!
 
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you are clueless about how free market forces dont work with health care, especially health insurance.

all other industrialzed nations have found this out and taiwan, the ultimate capitlastic country, where the insurance companies were not in bed with the politicians figured this out as well.

i own and manage other business ( not just my practice) so you are talking to a shameless, self serving capitalist and you cannot manage costs/ profits, overhead etc. like you do with other businesses and be competative.

http://www.pnhp.org/reader-old/Section%208%20-%20Myth%20Busters/Myths%20as%20Barriers%20(Geyman).pdf
sample read on why you cannot apply free market forces to health care.

There are whole books on this stuff.

and if you ever read my other posts, i hated the obama plan too. and yes we both agree that the monopoly of health insurance companies needs to be broken but that wont happen since they are in bed with the politicians as you mentioned. We both agree on that. but that was not the case in Taiwan!

I just wonder if what works in Taiwan would work here. For instance, I don't believe China could be held together under a free & , democratic govt, as diverse as the various provinces are and, frankly, how backward much of the mentality seems to be over here. After all, they're very homogeneous country (oops! I mean, A province of China) with a pop of 23M people. They also haven't bankrupted their treasury with two mulitrillion $ wars and a bloated welfare state. The fact is, they have been fiscally responsible enough, so that it seems to work fairly well, at least compared what they were used to.

I also didn't mean free market, as in no govt regulation at all. I meant interstate competition b/w firms. Right now, I can call an agent in Alabama and ask for a quote. If I go through a private carrier, my premium us enourmous. So, I basically have to depend on my employer. If rates go up, all he cans say is "hate it for ya." If I feel it's not competitive enough, I can't call an agent up in TN, CA, NY, etc. to look for a better quote. No one seems to be able to explain the logic behind this.
 
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I already know the obama/romney care ( they are identical) since I actually read 800 pages of the legislation to give a talk at Emory so I don't need a lecture. we need national health insurance, taiwan, very capitalistic and the same fragmented bloated administrative insurance system did great with this transition. My cousin, a dermatologist, was able to reduce his staff to 15 to just him, secretary and nurse again. He works for himself, not the government ( not socialized medicine) He gets paid less but brings home the same or more money and actually goes home early since he's not there till 11pm doing piecemeal paperwork for insurance companies, refaxing replicate forms for the 5th time justifying his treatment care. His two children graduating college can now look for a job they like , rather than a subpar position so they can get good health care benefits. as for tort reform, many of the lawsuits are uninsured trying to recover costs or help pay for medical bills once their private plan had used up their lifetime limit ( which ppaca got rid of). As chief of medicine at my hospital, the uninsured comprised the majority of medical lawsuits. This pool would be reduced tremendously.

I spend 88 grand a doctor per year ( we have 5 docs) for adminstrative staff to deal with the 300 private plans we accept. I have one staff member to bill medicare and we get paid in two weeks, the average private plans delays payments 3-6 months. Medicare advantage ( privatized medicare) is even worse.

How this for micky mouse, my brother's aetna pos plan says that laws of subrogation state that a third party should pay for his assault by a homeless schizophrenic that cost him 5 grand of emergency hospitalization. I have written letters verifying that the homeless shcizophrenic has no financial assets and that his employer who is paying 11 grand a year to aetna pos needs to get his employee's medical bills paid. This was six months ago. My brother had the 5 grand and paid it so he would not go into collections and is now trying to get his refund.

I don't lectrure, I gave an opinion. You sure think highly of yourself but at least in your case you have actual experience with it. Maybe a little less belittling will get you taken more seriously. I literally glanced over everything after your Emory comment. My brother has been asked to talk with multiple congressman to talk about healthcare, he never boasts about it or talks down to people acting like he knows more. :winkfinger:
 
you are too sensitive, i stated a fact, read the 800 pages of the health care legislation so I didn't need a lecture. and then gave you real world experiences. as for stating you were clueless about free market principles failing in health care, I may have been belittling you, my apologies. But ad hominem attacks seem standard practice on this forum. I also don't have much respect for the policy makers and people arguing for health care reform who aren't in the trenches and seeing the reality. I put myself on a high horse , not because I am better, but I have the advantage of seeing the forest and the trees because I am that mix of academia and business owner, ( my academic instution does not dictate my salary or my business practice model). Unfortunate in that I am not protected from the administrative beaurcrocy of dealing with health insurance carriers, but it means I have good pulse on reality, and I'm not in an ivory tower.
 
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I just wonder if what works in Taiwan would work here. For instance, I don't believe China could be held together under a free & , democratic govt, as diverse as the various provinces are and, frankly, how backward much of the mentality seems to be over here. After all, they're very homogeneous country (oops! I mean, A province of China) with a pop of 23M people. They also haven't bankrupted their treasury with two mulitrillion $ wars and a bloated welfare state. The fact is, they have been fiscally responsible enough, so that it seems to work fairly well, at least compared what they were used to.

I also didn't mean free market, as in no govt regulation at all. I meant interstate competition b/w firms. Right now, I can call an agent in Alabama and ask for a quote. If I go through a private carrier, my premium us enourmous. So, I basically have to depend on my employer. If rates go up, all he cans say is "hate it for ya." If I feel it's not competitive enough, I can't call an agent up in TN, CA, NY, etc. to look for a better quote. No one seems to be able to explain the logic behind this.

taiwan approximates our current model quite well which is why I use them since they had essentially the same system we have now so I like using them. and remember, we taiwanese dont consider ourselves chinese or even part of china, we just pretend so we don't get blown out of the water.

i like to look at data since i am a scientist, we have tried so many other models and they have failed. heres one from new england journal about managed competition failing in the netherlands.

MMS: Error

Discussions about U.S. health care reform are often parochial, with scant attention paid to other countries' experiences. It is thus surprising that in the ongoing debate over Medicare, some U.S. commentators have turned to the Netherlands as a model of regulated competition among private insurance companies.1 The Dutch experience is particularly relevant given the proposal by Congressman Paul Ryan (R-WI) to eliminate traditional Medicare and instead provide beneficiaries with vouchers to purchase private insurance.

south korea, australia, etc etc have played with and experimented and all have come to the conclusion pure free market forces does not work. You are right in that there might be some good mix between private and government regulation of the private plans, I believe that system is what is working in germany.
 
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In other words, all the homework has been done. And I can cite more studies. Free market in health care simply does not exist. Instead of beginning the reform debate with a discussion of free markets versus the government, we need to discuss the policies that will result in the best health care utilization of our resources. Once those are decided, then we can define the appropriate role of government in ensuring that those policies are carried out. That is why we are getting nowhere.
 
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In other words, all the homework has been done. And I can cite more studies. Free market in health care simply does not exist. Instead of beginning the reform debate with a discussion of free markets versus the government, we need to discuss the policies that will result in the best health care utilization of our resources. Once those are decided, then we can define the appropriate role of government in ensuring that those policies are carried out. That is why we are getting nowhere.

You get nowhere because congress is bought and paid for along with the fact that there are no term limits. When there is no incentive to make meaningful change, people won't do it when it means the gravy train stops.
 
You get nowhere because congress is bought and paid for along with the fact that there are no term limits. When there is no incentive to make meaningful change, people won't do it when it means the gravy train stops.



and that is the crux, i love that this country is a republic, protecting individuals from the tyranny of the majority but as a representative democracy it sucks, because the only ones who can ante up on the democratic process are those with the greatest lobbying power, not the citizens. That is why the tea party and wall street protestor movements( opppsite ends of the political spectrum ) are so emotionally appealing. I think so many of this country's problems would be solved with emliminating lobbying power. This not only limits corporations that abuse power but even non corporate entities that only want to further their power, all at the expense of the citizens...
 
:roflmao:
I just wonder if what works in Taiwan would work here. For instance, I don't believe China could be held together under a free & , democratic govt, as diverse as the various provinces are and, frankly, how backward much of the mentality seems to be over here. After all, they're very homogeneous country (oops! I mean, A province of China) with a pop of 23M people. They also haven't bankrupted their treasury with two mulitrillion $ wars and a bloated welfare state. The fact is, they have been fiscally responsible enough, so that it seems to work fairly well, at least compared what they were used to.

I also didn't mean free market, as in no govt regulation at all. I meant interstate competition b/w firms. Right now, I can call an agent in Alabama and ask for a quote. If I go through a private carrier, my premium us enourmous. So, I basically have to depend on my employer. If rates go up, all he cans say is "hate it for ya." If I feel it's not competitive enough, I can't call an agent up in TN, CA, NY, etc. to look for a better quote. No one seems to be able to explain the logic behind this.
:roflmao:What work's for one doesn't work for all..:coffee:
 
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