Start PCT? Or Cruise to be followed by PCT? Complex cycle critiques appreciated!

[beautifulpeople]

Stats: 33yo male, 6'0" 205lbs approx 9% bf, plenty of cycle experience in my 20's, but took about a 7-8 year break before true AAS recently, and only ran the legal stuff.

My current 16 week cycle consisted of Test Prop (kickstart), Test Enan (throughout), NPP (kickstart), Deca (first 8wks), Masteron (wks 2-13), Tren Ace second 8wks, and orals including Ulltradrol, Epistane, Superdrol and Tren-X/Trenazone for a kickstart, a week 9 jumpstart, and a closer. I love Tren-X/Trenazone because of the tremendous strength, vascularity, fat burning capability all without being methylated, and it can be run up to 8-10 weeks instead of just 3 or 4 weeks. Also love Epistane because is can go 6 weeks or so without the risks you get from SD.

Mind you, I ran T3 for the first 8 weeks at 50 to 100mg/day (mostly around 50), because my overarching goal was to lean up, regardless of how much muscle I packed on. I wanted to get into single digit bf, and I am decently pleased with my results overall. This was my first dip in the Tren pool, which was an eye opener. I manned up for the insomnia, sweats, etc. and made it through, and the results while on Tren were mind blowing! Won't ever run another cycle without it.

Call me crazy, but my favorite part of this cycle was a 1 week overlap of Tren Ace and NPP. OMG I must give that a full opportunity in my next cycle... I can always drop the NPP out if shit gets crazy.

So here is my proposed followup cycle.

*T3 @50mg throughout and HGH at 4-5iu throughout. I'm starting the HGH during PCT from my current cycle.

W1: Test Prop 250mg/wk, Test Enan 500mg/wk, NPP 250/wk, Deca 250mg/wk, Tren Ace 350mg/wk, Anadrol 50mg/day, Superdrol 20mg/day
W2:Test Prop 250mg/wk, Test Enan 500mg/wk, NPP 250/wk, Deca 250mg/wk, Tren Ace 350mg/wk, Anadrol 50mg/day, Superdrol 20mg/day
W3:Test Prop 250mg/wk, Test Enan 500mg/wk, NPP 250/wk, Deca 250mg/wk, Tren Ace 350mg/wkmg/wk, Anadrol 50mg/day, Superdrol 20mg/day
W4:Test Prop 250mg/wk, Test Enan 500mg/wk, NPP 125mg/wk, Deca 250mg/wk, Tren Ace 525mg/wk
W5: Test Enan 750mg/wk, NPP 125mg/wk, Deca 250mg/wk, Tren Ace 525mg/wk
W6: Test Enan 750mg/wk, Deca 350mg/wk, Tren Ace 525mg/wk
W7: Test Enan 750mg/wk, Deca 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk
W8: Test Enan 750mg/wk, Deca 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk
W9: Test Enan 750mg/wk, Deca 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Epistane 40mg/day, Trenazone 1mL/day
W10: Test Enan 750mg/wk, Deca 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Epistane 50mg/day, Trenazone 1mL/day
W11: Test Enan 750mg/wk, Deca 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Epistane 60mg/day, Trenazone 1mL/day
W12: Test Enan 750mg/wk, Deca 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Epistane 70mg/day, Trenazone 1mL/day
W13: Test Prop 750mg/wk, NPP 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Epistane 80mg/day, Trenazone 1mL/day
W14: Test Prop 750mg/wk, NPP 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Trenazone 1mL/day
W15: Test Prop 750mg/wk, NPP 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Trenazone 1mL/day
W16: Test Prop 750mg/wk, NPP 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Trenazone 1mL/day
W17: Test Prop 750mg/wk, NPP 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Trenazone 1mL/day, M1T 5-15mg/day
W18: Test Prop 750mg/wk, NPP 300mg/wk, Tren Ace 700mg/wk, Trenazone 1mL/day, M1T 15-20mg/day

QUESTIONS:

1. On hand I have letro (did what I needed it to do in current cycle, but would like a suggestion on the preferred AI for what I'm running. Anastrozole? Aromasin?

2. I'll be running Caber or Prami with all this. Which is preferred? I had Caber for my current cycle, but have since read more favorable info about Prami.

3. Will the transdermal dienolone (Trenazone) be too much 19-nor for this cycle? I like the oral pro-dienolone (Tren-X) more than I do Trenazone, but I don't have access to it anymorel I'm sure if someone sourced it and listed it, they'd make a killing! The best non-methylated PH I've ever tried! I love being able to stack it with a quality methylated oral.

4. My choices are to a) jump right into PCT, or to b) cruise for awhile (which would be new to me), or c) stretch out my current cycle to between 20 and 24 weeks. I'm 100% sure I'm done with children and I'm comfortable with running the necessary PCT to get me back on track after my current and/or followup cycle, but I have that itch to get started on the followup cycle like yesterday so... PCT, cruise, or extend current cycle?

5. HCG - how would you run it in the above cycle? Dosage? Where at in the cycle, or throughout?

6. I always use Nolva as part of my PCT attack (along with numerous other products for a stronger PCT). A bro here told me Clomid is the way to go with my current cycle, not Nolva. Personally, I hate Clomid - made me feel like a little beyitch, broke out a hell of a lot worse than on cycle, and it was just the devil. Is clomid really necessary, or will Nova be sufficient with HCG, Caber/Prami, Anastrozole/Aromasin/Letro, and continued HGH?

7. Any cycle tweaks are very much welcomed - just please be respectful about it at least. I realize it's a complex sort of cycle, on the longer end of typical cycles, etc., but I'd like to perfect it so that I have everything on hand and ready to go.

8. If I opt to go straight to PCT or to cruise, what is the shortest duration of time do you think I need to wait to jump into the proposed cycle? I know the general rule - time on + PCT = time off, but none of us actually follow that rule to a T and like I said, I'm got the itch big time! I feel like I could have made so much more progress on my current cycle, but some life stuff got in the way of balls to the wall training.

Most of you wont read this, and I understand - it's long. Because of m line of work, writing is what I do. But for the bro's who take the time and actually provide helpful feedback, I'm in your debt and would not hesitate to throw any help back your way!

 

[owwwch]

wow.. after reading your post, i still have alot to learn (still new to the whole aas thing)..

sorry i cant add anything (im just trying to read as much as i can rt now)

 

[beautifulpeople]

wow.. after reading your post, i still have alot to learn (still new to the whole aas thing)..

sorry i cant add anything (im just trying to read as much as i can rt now)

No worries bro. This is the place to learn, if anywhere. My best to you.

 

[theCaptn']

Are you taking an organ support supp?

 

[beautifulpeople]

Are you taking an organ support supp?

Definitely. I start with Cycle Support by AI (multi-organ) and add others according to how harsh that part of the cycle is or where I need to recover more (more milk thistle, Liv.52, etc.). If I can ever get pharma products for organ support (blood pressure, lipids etc.) then I do because I have a cool doc, but I haven't yet seen a need for it.

 

[rc771]

dude you are wasting your time and money running a cycle that complicated.

Test and Tren is all you need if you really like tren...

why over do it like that.

I would up the dose of test to 1000 - 1500mg/wk and tren at 500 - 700mg/wk with t3...

it will save you a whole lot of headache and results will be same.

 

[Vibrant]

Holy shit bro, how much did you gain off this cycle? Why so many orals and compounds? I think you should go and get yourself checked out, a least get a full panel blood test.

 

[rc771]

Holy shit bro, how much did you gain off this cycle? Why so many orals and compounds? I think you should go and get yourself checked out, a least get a full panel blood test.

seriously...

and he's only 205 at 6'

can't believe people

 

[XYZ]

Honestly, what are you trying to do cut or bulk?

It's really SUPER overkill. You can easily accomplish what you want with less than half the gear you have listed.

Nail the diet down and then focus on the rest. List out your diet currently.

 

[longworthb]

holy oral Batman that's a lot of compounds lol. I've heard of people running tren and npp together but for me the risk of my endocrine isn't worth it. that's got leaky tits written all over it. not to mention the stress on the liver with all those orals. test tren like was suggested sounds like your best bet with maybe a oral kicker and closer if u feel the need

 

[beautifulpeople]

dude you are wasting your time and money running a cycle that complicated.

Test and Tren is all you need if you really like tren...

why over do it like that.

I would up the dose of test to 1000 - 1500mg/wk and tren at 500 - 700mg/wk with t3...

it will save you a whole lot of headache and results will be same.

No offense bro, but have you ever tried NPP and Tren Ace together? It's a great experience if you run the right AI and supports. I've run Test/Tren and I've run Test/Nandrolone, but I've never seen magic like Test/Tren/NPP. I thought it was overdoing it before I did it myself, and maybe it is, but to each his own yeah? When you find a combo that is that magical for you, I bet you'd run it again and again.

For me, I lower the Nandrolone dose from what I'd typically run it at if I'm gonna run it with Tren. This isn't new or unheard of, and isn't necessarily overdoing it. I've considered increasing the Test dose, and I've considered decreasing it (if I were gonna run Test/Tren alone with no NPP) like the Tren:Test 2:1 type protocol. That's something I'd love to learn more about before I try it.

 

[beautifulpeople]

Holy shit bro, how much did you gain off this cycle? Why so many orals and compounds? I think you should go and get yourself checked out, a least get a full panel blood test.

I will probably complete the cycle at a roughly 10lb gain, which was my initial intent. Sounds minimal at first glance, but essentially, I used the first half to cut (reduced roughly 20lbs), then sort of recomped the remainder. If I could do it all over, I would have run the Tren during my cutting phase and then added NPP for the recomp/lean bulk phase (although 15 weeks of Tren isn't an easy task, so I kept it to 8wks there).

Bodyfat melted off in my cutting phase, and then when I added in the Tren, things got real serious and I kept shedding fat while lean bulking.

Why so many compounds? One reason is that each compound has its own benefits. I need the connective tissue repair benefits of Nandrolone. I need the fat shedding capabilities of Tren. I need Test because it's Test.

The orals are a different story... definitely not necessary, but they serve a purpose. Like a lot of bro's, I stall around week 9, and 3 weeks of SD fits the bill. I don't get a lot of the negative sides a lot of bro's get from SD. However, if my liver and lipids aren't where I want them to be at that point, I'll run Epistane instead, being easier on everything generally, while still effective. However, it doesn't kick in immediately for me like SD does. Dienolone, I love for the strength and leaning out, while not being methylated. Each oral or transdermal also serve purposes for me. I don't just throw them in for nothing. Just because you're running injectibles does not mean orals don't have their place.

I do keep up with my doc - like I said, my doc is one of the cool ones. I'm not the type to post panel results or personal pix, for very important personal reasons. At the same time, I'm not a moron - AAS use is a calculated risk, but we have so many more options for minimizing those risks than even just 5 years ago. Thanks for the recommendation - I do, and will continue to have consistent check ups with my doc to ensure that nothing is way off base.

 

[beautifulpeople]

seriously...

and he's only 205 at 6'

can't believe people

Okay, more like a tall 5'10" or 5'11", but how short would I have to be at 205 for you to think it's okay for me to run my gear? Dude, I just ripped down from 18% to 8% while ending up 10lbs heavier than when I started. Maybe that's not impressive enough to you, but for me it's life changing and all of my bloods to date have been acceptable, considering.

I take it you're pretty experienced and in killer shape. Our freedom of speech means you can say what the hell you want, when you want, how you want. I just don't think you should just jump on my case when I'm just trying to get helpful feedback on something I feel is a strong cycle based on personal experience with all of the compounds included. Sure, I can drop this or that out, lower doses of this, increase doses of that.

That's all I'm trying to do here - get constructive criticism around the fact that I WILL be running Test, NPP AND Tren, and that orals have always been more helpful than harmful for me. I know that with my short esters, I don't really need an oral kickstart. But SD (like Dbol or others) has always given me that extra "whatever" during my first month of the cycle that really motivates me to go balls to the wall.

I'm rambling. I'd still appreciate some constructive criticism here.

 

[ANIMALHAUS]

To answer your original question, don't bother cruising if you actually plan on running a PCT. It defeats the whole point of a blast/cruise.

 

[MDR]

1. Aromasin
2. Prami is most effective
3. I don't think you need the trenazone
4. I would PCT and take an extended break, but it is up to you.
5. HCG -500X2 mimimum throughout cycle, none during PCT.
6. I don't think Nolva is a good idea for PCT, especially with the drugs you are taking.
7. It has already been said, but I think this is way too many compounds, at least cut down on all the orals.
8. If you are going to leap into this kind of cycle, at least get blood work done and make sure you are fully recovered from your last run.

I would suggest you listen to XYZ and cut out most of this and post your diet. Consider running a more sensible cycle, and you will make tremendous gains if you eat right and train right. There is no need or benefit to running a cycle this complex. Good luck.

 

[rc771]

Okay, more like a tall 5'10" or 5'11", but how short would I have to be at 205 for you to think it's okay for me to run my gear? Dude, I just ripped down from 18% to 8% while ending up 10lbs heavier than when I started. Maybe that's not impressive enough to you, but for me it's life changing and all of my bloods to date have been acceptable, considering.

I take it you're pretty experienced and in killer shape. Our freedom of speech means you can say what the hell you want, when you want, how you want. I just don't think you should just jump on my case when I'm just trying to get helpful feedback on something I feel is a strong cycle based on personal experience with all of the compounds included. Sure, I can drop this or that out, lower doses of this, increase doses of that.

That's all I'm trying to do here - get constructive criticism around the fact that I WILL be running Test, NPP AND Tren, and that orals have always been more helpful than harmful for me. I know that with my short esters, I don't really need an oral kickstart. But SD (like Dbol or others) has always given me that extra "whatever" during my first month of the cycle that really motivates me to go balls to the wall.

I'm rambling. I'd still appreciate some constructive criticism here.

Sorry bro, I should have been more clear; mostly the issue i see was all the orals. drop those and I think you're fine. I can't talk when it comes to injectables, i run up to 100mg tren ed and up to 200mg prop ed... and I honestly would try NPP with that if i get a chance...

just that many different orals scare me and they are unnecessary...

 

[beautifulpeople]

Honestly, what are you trying to do cut or bulk?

It's really SUPER overkill. You can easily accomplish what you want with less than half the gear you have listed.

Nail the diet down and then focus on the rest. List out your diet currently.

Thanks bro. Where would you reduce the gear? To be honest, Test/Nandrolone/Tren is gold for me personally. I know to reduce the amount of Deca or NPP once Tren is in the picture, but what would be the minimum you'd suggest of Nandro alongside what appropriate dose of Tren? I'm running Tren Ace to hopefully minimize the sides, as I pin it everyday. I've run it as low as 350 and as high as 700. I didn't notice a difference in negative sides between 350, 525 or 700, but obviously observed a huge difference in the positives.

I don't really have time to post up my diet, but here's my typical day:

7am - 5 eggs, lean slice of turkey, chicken or ham, whole wheat toast, whole fruit
10am - Oatmeal with whole fruit and 25g protein powder.
12pm - Preworkout peanut butter and banana sandwiches, non-fat yogurt
2pm - Post workout shake 50-75g protein in water (or skim milk)
3pm - Post workout meal - Flatout wrap with baked chicken, avocado, spinach, carrots on the side, etc.
6pm - Chicken breast, steak, or fish (wifey's call), sweet potatoes, veggies, whole wheat toast, etc.
9pm - pre-bed shake - skim milk, few spoons of all natty peanut butter, 50g protein

I'm fairly boring with my diet, meaning I eat basically the same stuff everyday. I eat for function, not for flavor.

So essentially, if I'm cutting, I just eat less of all the same stuff. I keep my protein high regardless, but when cutting I prefer to reduce a lot of the carbs (all of the simples, and a good part of the complexes). If bulking, I just eat more of my regular foods, and make sure to get more oatmeal, whole wheat breads, unsaturated and monounsaturated fats). I'll throw in more healthy oils in shakes, on breads, or whatever. Wish I had the time to count my calories and macros to a T, but that's always been a challenge for me with the lifestyle I live. I do see and feel the progress like never before though, since I cleaned up my diet. I can count my proteins to the gram and I know exactly where simple/complex carbs are and where sat/unsat/monounsat fats are - I just don't mentally calculate my carbs and fats with the same precision as my proteins. I think a lot of us are the same way.

 

[beautifulpeople]

To answer your original question, don't bother cruising if you actually plan on running a PCT. It defeats the whole point of a blast/cruise.

Of course, bro. I never meant to imply I was gonna cruise AND run PCT. My question was whether I should PCT and hold off on this cycle until a few months down the road, or if I should cruise awhile and then blast away, to be followed by a serious PCT regimen, or if I could add in another 6-8 weeks to the 15 I've already run. One option out of the 3. Basically, I feel like I had killer results, and want to keep it going ASAP.

And regarding the "waste of money" comments, the gear is basically free to me (except for some of the legal PH's), so money's not the issue. I see the points in everyone's suggestion to drop the orals. I will certainly drop the dienolone. That leaves me with SD and Epi. SD to kickstart and Epi to close (similar to a Dbol kickstart with a Var closer IMO)? Just an idea. I'm not completely against leaving out the orals period... I just hate letting em go to waste (no, I'm not shipping them to your free recycling plant either ).

 

[beautifulpeople]

1. Aromasin
2. Prami is most effective
3. I don't think you need the trenazone
4. I would PCT and take an extended break, but it is up to you.
5. HCG -500X2 mimimum throughout cycle, none during PCT.
6. I don't think Nolva is a good idea for PCT, especially with the drugs you are taking.
7. It has already been said, but I think this is way too many compounds, at least cut down on all the orals.
8. If you are going to leap into this kind of cycle, at least get blood work done and make sure you are fully recovered from your last run.

I would suggest you listen to XYZ and cut out most of this and post your diet. Consider running a more sensible cycle, and you will make tremendous gains if you eat right and train right. There is no need or benefit to running a cycle this complex. Good luck.

Appreciate it bro. That's the kinda clear cut help I was hoping to get.

1. Aromasin seems like the clear choice now that I've researched it more.
2. I had Caber in my current cycle, but realize I shoulda gone with Prami.
3. I don't think I need Trenazone either.
4. Still up in the air for me, but thanks for your suggestion.
5. Thanks.
6. So, Clomid?
7. Point taken, and will do.
8. Also will do.

 

[longworthb]

id pct after this cycle for sure as it has some pretty harsh compounds and you don't wanna be shut down for good. I think SD kicker and epi closing is a good idea. I liked the gains I got with my SD kicker in this cycle.

 

[XYZ]

Thanks bro. Where would you reduce the gear? To be honest, Test/Nandrolone/Tren is gold for me personally. I know to reduce the amount of Deca or NPP once Tren is in the picture, but what would be the minimum you'd suggest of Nandro alongside what appropriate dose of Tren? I'm running Tren Ace to hopefully minimize the sides, as I pin it everyday. I've run it as low as 350 and as high as 700. I didn't notice a difference in negative sides between 350, 525 or 700, but obviously observed a huge difference in the positives.

I don't really have time to post up my diet, but here's my typical day:

7am - 5 eggs, lean slice of turkey, chicken or ham, whole wheat toast, whole fruit
10am - Oatmeal with whole fruit and 25g protein powder.
12pm - Preworkout peanut butter and banana sandwiches, non-fat yogurt
2pm - Post workout shake 50-75g protein in water (or skim milk)
3pm - Post workout meal - Flatout wrap with baked chicken, avocado, spinach, carrots on the side, etc.
6pm - Chicken breast, steak, or fish (wifey's call), sweet potatoes, veggies, whole wheat toast, etc.
9pm - pre-bed shake - skim milk, few spoons of all natty peanut butter, 50g protein

I'm fairly boring with my diet, meaning I eat basically the same stuff everyday. I eat for function, not for flavor.

So essentially, if I'm cutting, I just eat less of all the same stuff. I keep my protein high regardless, but when cutting I prefer to reduce a lot of the carbs (all of the simples, and a good part of the complexes). If bulking, I just eat more of my regular foods, and make sure to get more oatmeal, whole wheat breads, unsaturated and monounsaturated fats). I'll throw in more healthy oils in shakes, on breads, or whatever. Wish I had the time to count my calories and macros to a T, but that's always been a challenge for me with the lifestyle I live. I do see and feel the progress like never before though, since I cleaned up my diet. I can count my proteins to the gram and I know exactly where simple/complex carbs are and where sat/unsat/monounsat fats are - I just don't mentally calculate my carbs and fats with the same precision as my proteins. I think a lot of us are the same way.

You could really a new diet plan. That is ok I suppose but there are much better options. Where is the fish oil? Carbs in the PWO shake? You know there is sugar in the milk, and you're putting that in your body last thing at night, spiking your insulin levels with no activity? Veggies are on ther low side and the fruit on the high side. Too much bread for my liking as well, no matter if it's WW or not.

 

[beautifulpeople]

You could really a new diet plan. That is ok I suppose but there are much better options. Where is the fish oil? Carbs in the PWO shake? You know there is sugar in the milk, and you're putting that in your body last thing at night, spiking your insulin levels with no activity? Veggies are on ther low side and the fruit on the high side. Too much bread for my liking as well, no matter if it's WW or not.

Yes, definitely my diet could use some tweaking/revamping. Fish oil, I take between 7-11g/day (Oximega by Controlled Labs, which has 2g/cap) and some days I just get it straight from fish.

Carbs in "post" workout shake or in "pre" workout shake? For my post, I try to have a whole fruit immediately following workout (could be bro science, but I've read the insulin spike lit that's out there). For preworkout, I don't have a solid plan, other than something like an all natty peanut butter sandwich on whole wheat with a banana, and maybe some non-fat yogurt. Not for any particular reason, just cuz it's easy on the run with some good complex and simple carbs, a little protein and some healthy fats, that fit in with my daily macros. And I typically use White Flood by Controlled labs as a pre-WO drink. But if you could throw out a couple of pre-WO meal ideas, I'd be grateful.

Milk and bread - I got in the habit of leaving them out of my diet completely, but while I was running gear (particularly the Tren Ace because my understanding is that Tren is making good use of every last calorie, whether cutting, bulking or recomping), I felt okay including milk w/ my shakes for the additional protein, even at the expense of the excess sugar, and WW bread with some meals for the complex carbs and little bit of protein. But I hear ya bro... I've read once that skim milk is like taking a bottled water, adding a scoop of protein, and then adding a big scoop of table sugar -. I'm ready to go back to all water, which is what I'm used to.

And veggies, yeah definitely on the low side - that's always been a problem of mine. I take a greens supp (Oximega Greens by Controlled Labs) on top of the veggies I do take in. But I will start to increase them throughout the day, instead of just getting em at lunch and dinner.

I appreciate your feedback bro.