BlueJayMuscle
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If your workout is less than an hour it'll peak after you're done anyway... Hm I'll look into it
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6 week insulin run
- Thread starter theCaptn'
- Start date
Standard Donkey
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its supposed to be active for 2 hours post injection. i thought it was supposed to peak almost immediately?
BlueJayMuscle
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It slight peaks after about 10-15 min but the big peak is an hour after injection with humalog then it's out around the 2 hour mark. That's my understanding at least
Standard Donkey
Registered
what does that have to do with gearz and slin?
Another big week, hit 440lb rack pulls for reps, sitting just over 250lbs.
I'm going to try mutants protocol tommorrow without the hgh or IGF, using 12iu of insulin:
- -30 min prior to workout: Take 10iu HGH subq
- -15 min prior to workout: Take 6-16iu Novalog subq
- -10 min prior to workout: Drink shake #1
- -After every working set: Sip on shake #2, and finish by end of workout
- -Go home
- -Take 100mcg of the IGF-1lr3 (for it's insulin sensitizing effects)
- -Take down shake #3
- -Done..now you are huge
Ok, now what is in the shakes...
Shake 1: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50g cyclic dextrins, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate, 200mg Caffeine (or pre-workout powdered mix of choice in place of caffeine)
Shake 2: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50-100g Cyclic dextrins, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate
Shake 3: 2 cups pasteurized egg whites, 1 cup dry oats, 1 banana or 1 cup blueberries (I prefer them to be frozen), splenda or stevia
I'm going to try mutants protocol tommorrow without the hgh or IGF, using 12iu of insulin:
- -30 min prior to workout: Take 10iu HGH subq
- -15 min prior to workout: Take 6-16iu Novalog subq
- -10 min prior to workout: Drink shake #1
- -After every working set: Sip on shake #2, and finish by end of workout
- -Go home
- -Take 100mcg of the IGF-1lr3 (for it's insulin sensitizing effects)
- -Take down shake #3
- -Done..now you are huge
Ok, now what is in the shakes...
Shake 1: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50g cyclic dextrins, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate, 200mg Caffeine (or pre-workout powdered mix of choice in place of caffeine)
Shake 2: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50-100g Cyclic dextrins, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate
Shake 3: 2 cups pasteurized egg whites, 1 cup dry oats, 1 banana or 1 cup blueberries (I prefer them to be frozen), splenda or stevia
I did this to the letter for 8 weeks. This cycle is when I crossed some plateus that I just assumed where genetic limitations. I have done it with just slin and its effective. I have done it with slin and igf and I think that's where the freak growth occurred.
Is is oddly difficult to choke down that last drink. I also added a scope of hydro whey to the final shake.
Mike Arnold
Registered
There isn't really any need to concern yourself with its "peak". It is far more important to make sure it is active when you want it to be. Humulin R starts releasing immediately, but it generally takes at least 30-60 minutes before one feels their blood sugar dropping, as it takes some time to deplete current blood sugar levels. If Humulin is injected 30-60 minutes prior to a workout, that is more than fine.
Mike Arnold
Registered
Mutant recently changed the ingredients in his shakes (he added both branched cyclic dextrins and hydrolyzed proteins), which is what a few other coaches have been recommending, including myself and John Meadows. It is good he made these change, as they are much better than what he was recommending before, but there are still some significant errors in his program, which he should adjust.
For one, Pepto pro is not your best choice of protein, as it is denatured hydrolyzed calcium caseinate. Calcium caseinate is crap. The only good thing about peptopro is that it is hydrolyzed. That's it. The protien itself is junk, despite its relatively high cost. Non-denatured hydrolzyed proteins are superior, such as hydrolyzed micellar casein, hydrolyzed whey, or hydrolyzed beef protein. EAA's are a good choice for guys who have trouble digesting all those shakes during training, but they are not the most effective for growth, as all free form aminos acids are completely lacking in all the growth factors found in whole proteins. The proteins I mentioned are loaded with growth factors, while maintaining their hydrolyzed form. Casein (specifically hydrolyzed micellar casein) is a great protein for growth when combined with hydrolyzed whey (the science confirms that growth is superior when the two are combined), but this can be costly.
I see mutant just started recommending branched chain cyclic dextrins...something both John and I have been doing or quite some time. They are the best form of carbohydrate for this purpose...period.
Mutant does not include Luecine in his shakes, which is a VITAL mistake. Leucine is the ONLY amino acid capable of stimulating protien synthesis. Without Leucine, there won't be ANY growth. With less than optimal levels of leucine, it does not matter how much protein you eat...your body can NOT optimize potein syntheis. Its inclusion is vital. Science shows that it takes about 4.5 grams of leucine, consumed all at once in rapidly digesting form (free form Leucine is best for this purpose, as growth factors are not what were after when supplementing with leucine). In mutant's program, the total amount of EAA's included does not come anywhere close to supplying optimal leucine levels throughout the training window....and neither does pepto pro. PeptoPro, being a casein protein, supplies less leucine than proteins like whey and not anywhere close to enough leucine to maximize protein syntheis.
In addition, IGF-1 LR3 should NOT...I repeat NOT be injected immediately after one's workout, as it stunts the normal growth process initiated by the body post-training. Immediately after training, the body intentionally turns off IGF-1 production and initiates MGF production. The 1st MGF variant is produced directly within muscle tissue for about 2 hours proceeding a workout. Afterwards, the body begins to manufacture the 2nd MGF variant, which will continue for several hours. MGF is critical in the recovery & growth process. The problem with injecting IGF-1 right after training is that both IGF-1 and MGF bind to the same receptor sites. The reason this is a problem is because IGF-1 has a sigificantly stronger binding affinity than MGF, so when IGF-1 is present post-wokout, it prevents the MGF from attaching to the the receptor and doing its job. In other words, by injecting IGF-1 post-workout, you are stopping the bod from initiating an important phase in the growth process. IGF-1, regardless of form, should never be used immediately after training. The goal of using IGF-1 is to compliment and coincide with the body's natural growth process, not interupt it. Disrupting this entire process just so we can increase insulin sensitivity does not make sense. Not only is the proliferation-differentiation process more important (this is how MGF & IGF-1 interact to grow new muscle fibers) than experiencing a tiny increase in insulin sensitivity, but we can use other drugs which are far more effective for increaing insulin sensity, without causing any of these issues. The drug is Glucophase (Metformin)...and it does a MUCH bette job of enhancing insulin sensitivity than IGF-1.
Lastly, if one is using IGF-1 LR3 to increase insulin sensitivity, why inject it after the workout, when the insulin was injected a few hours prior? It makes much more sense to inject DES 10 minutes pre-workout, which will not only increase insulin sensitivity at the time you most want it most (during the workout), but it won't interfere with the proliferation-differentiation process, due to its short active life.
All in all, every aspect of the program I listed is superior. For those who are interested in including peptides such as GH, IGF-1, and MGF, I have included them below for reference:
45 minutespre-workout: 15 IU Humulin R.
20 minutes pre-workout: 50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 20 grams Glycerol monostearate. 3 gramsLeucine. 5 grams Micronized creatine monohydrate. 2 grams Beta alanine. 3 grams Taurine. 500 mg Potassium. 1 gram Vitamin C.
10 minutes pre-workout: 100-300 mcg DES IGF-1.
60 minutes after 1[SUP]st[/SUP]shake: 50 grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 3 gramsLeucine. 5 grams Micronized creatine. 2 grams Beta alanine. 3 grams Taurine.
Immediately post-workout: 500mcg PEG-MGF.
20 minutes post-workout: 10 IU GH.
60 minutes after 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]shake (the workout will likely be finished bynow): 50grams Branched chain cyclic dextrins. 20 grams non-denatured hydrolyzed protein. 3 grams Leucine.
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Mike, thanks for the heads up on the igf - that is something easily sourced in Aus. HGH is near impossible.
I was drawn by mutants protocol as he uses the same insulin type as I have.
the recipe I saw of mutant had dextrose. I just made the quick edit as I posted, note my actual shakes are pretty much as you laid down - including the cyclic dextrins and leucine.
Ill make adjustment and see how it rolls.
Ok...now that mak'es sense. Thatls what I remember utant including in his shakes...dextrose. Dextrose is way out-dated...no reason to use that stuff anymore...ever. I don't want to sound like i am bashing peptoprp that hard...becaue it is a hydrolyzed protein...it just happens to be denatured quite a bit compared to most other protein sold today, but it is still better than consuming a non-hydrolyzed protein.
As far as which insulin is used...humulin or humalog...either one is fine. You simply have to adjust the shake timing. Humulin is probably a bit easier to use, as you don't have to drink the shakes so fast. Drinking all those shakes within a short period of time can make someone rather full.
Also, if you prefer to use whole food in your last shake, go for it. In reality, eating a bunch of protein & carbs, along with a big dose of slin, is going to work well...regardless of which sources are used.
You are right about GH being a bitch to get over in Aus....and when it is available, it is a complete rip-off...wayyyy over-priced.
I was drawn by mutants protocol as he uses the same insulin type as I have.
the recipe I saw of mutant had dextrose. I just made the quick edit as I posted, note my actual shakes are pretty much as you laid down - including the cyclic dextrins and leucine.
Ill make adjustment and see how it rolls.
Ok...now that mak'es sense. Thatls what I remember utant including in his shakes...dextrose. Dextrose is way out-dated...no reason to use that stuff anymore...ever. I don't want to sound like i am bashing peptoprp that hard...becaue it is a hydrolyzed protein...it just happens to be denatured quite a bit compared to most other protein sold today, but it is still better than consuming a non-hydrolyzed protein.
As far as which insulin is used...humulin or humalog...either one is fine. You simply have to adjust the shake timing. Humulin is probably a bit easier to use, as you don't have to drink the shakes so fast. Drinking all those shakes within a short period of time can make someone rather full.
Also, if you prefer to use whole food in your last shake, go for it. In reality, eating a bunch of protein & carbs, along with a big dose of slin, is going to work well...regardless of which sources are used.
You are right about GH being a bitch to get over in Aus....and when it is available, it is a complete rip-off...wayyyy over-priced.
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Standard Donkey
Registered
Mike, are you saying that peptopro is essentially worthless for muscle growth? if so, where can i get the protein you suggested?
for what it's worth, John Meadows swears by peptopro, as does shelby IIRC..
would you say that whey isolate > peptopro, in terms of growth/recovery?
thank you
EDIT: True Nutrition - TN Proteins if you see there, TN has both calcium caseinate and peptopro, you are confident they are the same thing even though they are different products?
for what it's worth, John Meadows swears by peptopro, as does shelby IIRC..
would you say that whey isolate > peptopro, in terms of growth/recovery?
thank you
EDIT: True Nutrition - TN Proteins if you see there, TN has both calcium caseinate and peptopro, you are confident they are the same thing even though they are different products?
Mike Arnold
Registered
John now recommends a different hydrolysate...not peptopro. I believe switched to hydrolyzed micellar casein for the same reason I mentioned...because it is not dentaured like PeptoPro. See, PeptoPro used to be one of the only pure hydrolyzed proteins available, but now that there are other (and better) hydrolyzed proteins on the market, he recommends the better ones. As for Shelby, I am not sure what he recommends, but regardless, peptopro is no longer the best.
Like I stated in a previous post, peptopro and calcium caseinate are different products. Peptopro is hydrolyzed calcium caseinate, while regular calcium caseinate is not hydrolyzed.
No, I would NOT recommend an isolate over peptopro. As I said in every other post, the protein should be hydrolyzed for best results with this type of program. But...there are different types of hydrolyzed proteins. Any protein can be hydrolyzed. Pepto pro is hydrolyzed calcium caseinate. Calcium caseinate is a relatively poor quality protein, compared to proteins such as whey isolate, micellar casein, and beef protein isolate. You would be much better off consuming hydrolyzed whey isolate, hydrolyzed micellar casen, or hydrolyzed beef protein isolate. In my opinion, a combination of all 3 is ideal. Science has proven that a combination of whey and casein results is better growth than consuming only whey or casein. No studies, to my knwledge, have compared beed protein isolate to whey or casein, but due to beef's unqiue microfractions, combining all 3 is likely the best way to go.
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Standard Donkey
Registered
where do we find this hydrolyzed micellar casein?
Mike Arnold
Registered
Sorry, but I Don't know. I think John said he knows of a particular product coming out which contains it, but I don't think it is avaiable as a pure protein...although I could be wrong. It will be very expensive.
Mike Arnold
Registered
Sorry, but I don't know. I think John said he knows of a particular product coming out which contains it, but I don't think it is avaiable as a pure protein...although I could be wrong. It will be very expensive.
Standard Donkey
Registered
im guessing biotest is coming out with it... hmmm coincidence? lol, thanks for the info bro
AlphaMaleDawg
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Leucine is really that important when taking slin?? Dam, off to the Vitamin Shoppe to buy some immediately because I haven't been using it
Mike Arnold
Registered
Leucine isn't important only when taking slin...it is important all the time. Anytime you are trying to stimulate maximal growth, leucine intake must be at peak levels. It cannot happen any other way. It is the ONLY amino acid capable of and responsible for stimulating protein synthesis...none of the other aminosdo. No leucine= no growth. Less than optimal amounts of leuince= less than optimal growth...period. It doesn't matter how many other aminos/protein you eat, you will never maxzimize protein syntheis unless leucine intake is ideal.
Standard Donkey
Registered
AlphaMaleDawg
Registered
I just immediately ordered some upon reading your post
Thanks again for your input Mike - much appreciated
Standard Donkey
Registered
bump for answer? 
cottonmouth
Registered
bump for answer?
^^ Truenutrition has hydrolyzed casein, not just pepto pro,, not sure if it micellar though.
I did 5iu humulin r preworkout this morning, using the the shakes as Mike posted and the pumps were crazy, I shortened the times in between shakes to 60 minutes instead of 75 because my workouts are only about 75 minutes long. The recovery time in between sets was a lot shorter. I'm going to bump to 8iu tomorrow.
Standard Donkey
Registered
dirtwarrior
Registered
I know it is leagle to get the R type but what do you say to pharmist to get it without raising alarm
Standard Donkey
Registered
I did 12iu following mikes protocol. Had shake 2 with me and needed it 40min after shake 1 - took half then finished it 20min later after WO. Killer delt pumps for sure.
I've got another week of slin-gear cycle, then got a weeks holiday, cruising for 8 weeks total.
Have a mate giving me some 30:70 blend. Ill probably run more slin in April.
I've got another week of slin-gear cycle, then got a weeks holiday, cruising for 8 weeks total.
Have a mate giving me some 30:70 blend. Ill probably run more slin in April.
Standard Donkey
Registered
how killer were the pumps on a scale of 1-10? Also, how is your recovery in general? do you feel you are able to train more often?
Recovery has been exceptional. That has been the standout feature of slin use so far. Been feeling fresh before each WO, hitting PBs 2x week.
I guess I could train more times a week, but think 4x week is enough, I'd rather keep the rest time for growth.
Pumps a good 8+. Especially with delts, had to extend time between sets yesterday. This is when using slin preWO.