here comes the draft

[Big Smoothy]

I lived in Italy for 2 years, and lived in Ireland for one year. So don't pull that crap on me bro. I think all governments are wrong, but I don't take sides with the enemy.I never watch TV unless its Boxing, and I have my college degree in English lit, so I have read as much as most.....I'm not smart at all, but I am no slave.

Foreman I was not referring to you, at all.

 

[GFR]

Foreman I was not referring to you, at all.

A better example would have been; most Americans don't travel. TV and reading in any country is suspect, because of the very few of huge corporations controlling the information. The truth is, either you are awake or asleep..........TV and books don't have anything to do with it.....except Howard Zinn.

 

[Big Smoothy]

saying stupid shit like "Oh, I support the insurgents, but I also support the US soldiers." You cant support one and the other, politically, or any other way.

Politically you can 1. support the insurgents in keeping a Shiite government from coming to power,

and 2. wish no harm on the troops.

This is an IRAQI internecine issue. Not an American one.

If the US backs out now, the blood shed would be much greater.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's an IRAQI issue. Not an American one.

I dont think all of Iraq is worth one US life.

We agree on this point.

But truth tell, we're kind of in this situation now, and you cant just pull out.... and leaving the job half finished will drive off many more.

I don't think the job ever will be finished. Demographics is mostly the reason.

Along with which it will make us look impotent

Impotent? America is very impotent right now.

G.W. Bush is dumping T-bills to China, Japan, and South Korea.

Current Account deficits. Trade deficits.

The bills are going to come due.

Especially with North Korea watching and wondering just what they can get away with, as well as any other country that might have bad intentions if it weren't for the fact that we are a bit trigger happy sometimes.

I thought we were talking about Iraq.

I really dont like the situation we are in over there at all. But I dont think the right decision is pulling out and leaving everything half finished.

The Americans will not win this. I've been saying this for over 2 years.

These are the same people that are killing and maiming hundreds and thousands of Iraqis for political goals which are not the Iraqi peoples to begin with.

Shiites, Sunni, and Kurds do not consider themselves to be the same. One nation-state will probably not work.

I'm sure the millions of free Iraqis thank you for your sentiment.

Free? How so?

 

[Big Smoothy]

Here is a link showing the faces, names, and biographies of all the Americans killed this month because of George W. Bush love of "black gold."

Eggs, you will enjoy this. And, you should think of signing up, since you are so gung-ho.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/2005.05.html

 

[Big Smoothy]

A link quoting statements linking Saddam Hussein to Osama Bin Laden & Al-Qaeda, and WMD.

http://lunaville.org/WMD/billmon.aspx

 

[Decker]

Bush pulled off some amazing coup that came down to Republicans winning in Ohio because somehow polling is done so well these days that they were able to predict what every person in every state was going to vote like... and what it came down to is that their big Repulican super computer told them that they had to cheat the system in Ohio so they could win the election.

I looked at the results of the exit polling in the presidential race with a bit of anticipation, at the time, b/c in modern US history they have NEVER BEEN WRONG in determining the winner. I take that back, exit polling was wrong 2 times...in 2000--where Bush was handed the presidency by a corrupt Sup. Ct. decision (count no more and go home--fuck Fl. law) and in 2004.

That being said, I think our elections will be corrupt--paperless voting machines, voting machines subject to easy tampering/manipulation, voting machines manufactured by company's promising "we will deliver Ohio to Pres. Bush"...in short, no accountability and indicia of corruption--unfortunately it seems to be part of winning in America.

 

[Eggs]

Eggs, you will enjoy this. And, you should think of signing up, since you are so gung-ho.

Actually, I've already been in the military. Have you? I didn't have to run away to talk shit about it from Vietnam(or are you in Thailand now?), I prefer to spend my time here trying to do things that are right, as the more people in the US we have that are doing the right thing the better. Of course, running away to another country and talking smack is always a lovely alternative. Good for you

 

[Eggs]

Politically you can 1. support the insurgents in keeping a Shiite government from coming to power,
and 2. wish no harm on the troops.
This is an IRAQI internecine issue. Not an American one.

Right, so you are supporting putting people into power that would (and currently do) abuse the Iraqi people. Regardless, no you can't support that, its illogical. Now, if there were no US troops over there you could logically support that statement. As is, the two are at odds.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's an IRAQI issue. Not an American one.

Unfortunately, now whats going on over there is a US issue.

I don't think the job ever will be finished. Demographics is mostly the reason.

Yeh, I dont know if it will be either. Obviously we should only sustain operations over there for so long. I'm not sure what the point is where it is best for us to pull troops out. I dont think its quite yet... but I do know we dont need to keep our guys over there another 5 or 10 years.

Impotent? America is very impotent right now.

G.W. Bush is dumping T-bills to China, Japan, and South Korea.

Current Account deficits. Trade deficits.

The bills are going to come due.

There is more to impotence than money. However, our kick in the balls deficit isnt helping matter any. It is true that we cannot sustain a war and not be spending money like crazy. Thats another issue that needs to come into play as we determine how long our troops will be over there. I dont personally feel like paying the bill for a sustained operation. But I'm hoping that we can have a positive effect.

I actually have been sceptical since the beginning of the war that Democracy was the right step for that area. As you said, too many differences.

I thought we were talking about Iraq.

We were, and are. However, policy in one part of the world can certainly affect our interests in other parts.

The Americans will not win this. I've been saying this for over 2 years.

Ah, its not just about winning. Besides, the US can never win this... the only people that can win this are the Iraqis, if they manage to get their shit together. We'll see how that works out.

Shiites, Sunni, and Kurds do not consider themselves to be the same. One nation-state will probably not work.

Yeah, as I said above, I am not sure of that either. We'll see.

Free? How so?

Free as in they can now vote in the least. Of course there is always the fear that terrorists inflict on the people to try and subject them to their will... but as in the past elections in Iraq, the people still voted despite that. There is progress from a freedom point of view since Saddam was taken out of power. Unfortunately, with the blood thirsty neighbors all coming over to kill and terrorize the Iraqis I'd think that its not really so much a safer place than the Iraq that Saddam had in the last couple years.

As stated before though, I dont think we can just pull out now. I'm not sure what needs to happen for us to leave though. Obviously things might not work out... and we need to have plans for that. But it would be nice if they did

 

[Eggs]

btw, its sort of interesting to me... but its strange that as the war in Iraq seems to go on and (currently at least) get a bit worse, Israel and Palestine have been chilling and not killing each other so much. Guess one hot spot over there is enough action for all the spectators.