making money ...

[naturaltan]

And here is how NT if funding his next trip
for those of you who follow poker or know how it's played, essentially, this should have been a split pot - each getting half - but I got very lucky with the river (last card).

PokerStars Game #3191220658: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/11/29 - 08:02:01 (ET)
Table 'Hamiltonia' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Hgwarrior00 ($75 in chips)
Seat 2: naturaltan ($198 in chips)
Seat 3: gray430 ($210.55 in chips)
Seat 4: OMMM ($78.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Rule # One ($287.85 in chips)
Seat 6: AceKing001 ($195 in chips)
Seat 7: FinDog40 ($136.70 in chips)
Seat 8: sparkersss ($69 in chips)
Seat 9: Skates77 ($130.20 in chips)
Skates77: posts small blind $1
Hgwarrior00: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to naturaltan [Qs Jc]
naturaltan: calls $2
gray430: folds
OMMM: folds
Rule # One: folds
AceKing001: calls $2
FinDog40: calls $2
sparkersss: calls $2
Skates77: calls $1
Hgwarrior00: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qd Qh 4c]
Skates77: checks
Hgwarrior00: checks
naturaltan: checks
AceKing001: checks
FinDog40: bets $4
sparkersss: folds
Skates77: calls $4
Hgwarrior00: folds
naturaltan: calls $4
AceKing001: folds
*** TURN *** [Qd Qh 4c] [4h]
Skates77: checks
naturaltan: bets $4
FinDog40: folds
Skates77: raises $20 to $24
naturaltan: raises $20 to $44
Skates77: raises $80.20 to $124.20 and is all-in
naturaltan: calls $80.20
*** RIVER *** [Qd Qh 4c 4h] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Skates77: shows [Qc 9c] (a full house, Queens full of Fours)
naturaltan: shows [Qs Jc] (a full house, Queens full of Jacks)
naturaltan collected $269.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $272.40 | Rake $3
Board [Qd Qh 4c 4h Js]
Seat 1: Hgwarrior00 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: naturaltan showed [Qs Jc] and won ($269.40) with a full house, Queens full of JacksSeat 3: gray430 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: OMMM folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Rule # One folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: AceKing001 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: FinDog40 folded on the Turn
Seat 8: sparkersss (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Skates77 (small blind) showed [Qc 9c] and lost with a full house, Queens full of Fours

 

[largepkg]

You could tell that was a split from the beginning. Nice draw out NT!

PS. I'm playing right now!

 

[NeilPearson]

QJ is a very questionable hand to be limping in with UTG. What would have happened if there was a preflop raise? You call it and are now out of position and likely dominated... and maybe isolated by the raiser. Not a good situation, especially in a no-limit game.

 

[naturaltan]

I agree with you absolutely. But I watched a few rounds and saw not many raises preflop, so I will put my $2.00 and hope for a flop ... and even on the flop, I was very careful as I wasn't confident in my kicker. But on the turn, it's a split pot and I only lose if the kicker of Skater comes up.

I'm up $700 by just playing solid hands strong and folding to a strong sign of strength with the type of hands above. It was my last hand and thought I'd throw out the $2.00 just to see.

 

[naturaltan]

You could tell that was a split from the beginning. Nice draw out NT!

PS. I'm playing right now!

Where do you play at?

 

[largepkg]

QJ is a very questionable hand to be limping in with UTG. What would have happened if there was a preflop raise? You call it and are now out of position and likely dominated... and maybe isolated by the raiser. Not a good situation, especially in a no-limit game.

It's $2 with a respectable hand! If there was a big raise pre flop he could have laid the hand down. I don't see the problem especially in a cash game.

 

[largepkg]

Where do you play at?

Party poker. The most evil site known to man!

 

[NeilPearson]

I was playing in Vegas over the weekend. This guy was raising about 75% of his hands and had about $250 left (he had about $500 a half hour before) (1/2 blind $100 max buy-in table)

Anyway, he is first to act and raises it to $20 (yeah only $3 in blinds are out there already). It folds to the button who makes it $40. I have $85 left and look down to see AA... so naturally I push all in. Crazy guy calls. The button reraises all-in. Crazy guy calls. The button had KK and knew I had AA but he had the other guy covered and was going for the side pot. So what does the crazy guy have? Q2... seriously

Anyway, I won the main pot, KK won the side pot (so he won more than he lost to me)

Guy with Q2 then proceeded to rebuy another 5 times in the next hour and a half before getting all pissed off and leaving the table. He was complaining that with the $100 max buy-in he couldn't play since now everyone at the table had over $200 in chips (which pretty much all came from him)

I am used to playing mostly online and then I play live in Vegas maybe once a year and am always amazed by the play. Q2 vs 2 all-ins? What was this guy thinking? Not only that, with $1/2 blinds, the standard opening raise was $15-25... and then they would get 4-5 callers. People would totally overbet the pot and people would call with little to nothing. It was a good game but with all the preflop raises I couldn't really play many hands. It didn't matter though, I would just fold, fold, fold, get a really nice hand like AA or KK and then play it strong and I would always get action.

I don't know what they are thinking when I fold for an hour and a half and then finally play a hand for a big raise and a bunch of people call. People always complain about online players but the live games I have played are much, much looser.

 

[naturaltan]

It's $2 with a respectable hand! If there was a big raise pre flop he could have laid the hand down. I don't see the problem especially in a cash game.

Not sure at this level (I usually play the .50/$1.00 tables), but I will raise in positioin at the $100NL tables with this hand. Until I've been beat bad with good play, I will continue. In this example, as large said, I'll call this bet all day long until someone throws out a bet that says to me "hmmmm, time to lay it down."

 

[NeilPearson]

It's $2 with a respectable hand! If there was a big raise pre flop he could have laid the hand down. I don't see the problem especially in a cash game.

It depends. Like he said the table was pretty soft with not a lot of raising going on.. so okay.

QJ is an okay hand but mostly it will lose money over the long run. To play it, you either have to really know the table or only play it in late position.

Limping in preflop and then folding to a big raise (or calling that big raise) is a sure way to slowly bleed off chips.

Position is king in no-limit hold'em.

Actually I would be less likely to play this in a cash game than in a tournament. The blinds in a tournament force you to play. In a $1/2 blind cash game, you can wait forever for a good situation. I would most likely fold QJ, KJ (maybe AJ) preflop from early position.

 

[NeilPearson]

Not sure at this level (I usually play the .50/$1.00 tables), but I will raise in positioin at the $100NL tables with this hand. Until I've been beat bad with good play, I will continue. In this example, as large said, I'll call this bet all day long until someone throws out a bet that says to me "hmmmm, time to lay it down."

Why raise a hand when the only time you are likely to be called is with a hand that dominates you? I'd rather not give good play a chance to beat me bad.

 

[largepkg]

Actually I would be less likely to play this in a cash game than in a tournament. The blinds in a tournament force you to play. In a $1/2 blind cash game, you can wait forever for a good situation. I would most likely fold QJ, KJ (maybe AJ) preflop from early position.

This baffles me!

You're obviously the classic tight player but you have to take some risk. It's not often you look down and see paint on both. I certainly wouldn't raise or re-raise unless I had previous call to do so. Such as a complete wad who raises every thing but I digress.

 

[naturaltan]

I was playing in Vegas over the weekend. This guy was raising about 75% of his hands and had about $250 left (he had about $500 a half hour before) (1/2 blind $100 max buy-in table)

Anyway, he is first to act and raises it to $20 (yeah only $3 in blinds are out there already). It folds to the button who makes it $40. I have $85 left and look down to see AA... so naturally I push all in. Crazy guy calls. The button reraises all-in. Crazy guy calls. The button had KK and knew I had AA but he had the other guy covered and was going for the side pot. So what does the crazy guy have? Q2... seriously

Anyway, I won the main pot, KK won the side pot (so he won more than he lost to me)

Guy with Q2 then proceeded to rebuy another 5 times in the next hour and a half before getting all pissed off and leaving the table. He was complaining that with the $100 max buy-in he couldn't play since now everyone at the table had over $200 in chips (which pretty much all came from him)

I am used to playing mostly online and then I play live in Vegas maybe once a year and am always amazed by the play. Q2 vs 2 all-ins? What was this guy thinking? Not only that, with $1/2 blinds, the standard opening raise was $15-25... and then they would get 4-5 callers. People would totally overbet the pot and people would call with little to nothing. It was a good game but with all the preflop raises I couldn't really play many hands. It didn't matter though, I would just fold, fold, fold, get a really nice hand like AA or KK and then play it strong and I would always get action.

I don't know what they are thinking when I fold for an hour and a half and then finally play a hand for a big raise and a bunch of people call. People always complain about online players but the live games I have played are much, much looser.

I thought at the bigger table limits you'd find better players, but I've yet to see that.

What kind of table limits do they have in Vegas?

 

[NeilPearson]

This baffles me!

You're obviously the classic tight player but you have to take some risk. It's not often you look down and see paint on both. I certainly wouldn't raise or re-raise unless I had previous call to do so. Such as a complete wad who raises every thing but I digress.

Sure you have to take some risk. Anytime you enter a hand you take risk. Educated risk though and in early position, you just don't have the information to know whether you are taking a risk with QJ or just foolishly throwing money away.

It comes down to expected value. If you play that hand 10,000 times under those circumstances, will you make money or lose money. I know that calling with QJ, KJ in early position is negative expected value.

Whether or not the cards both have paint or not is irrelevant. It is how likely you are to hit a flop and how likely your hand will be good if you do. Also, it is how likely you know your hand will be good if you hit. Lets say you play KJ in early position, hit your K and you bet. Now what happens if you are called or raised? If there was no preflop raise, there is a good chance you are looking at KQ. There is a slight chance you are looking at KT or K9 or worse though. Now you are set up for a tough decision and neither option is really good. Do you fold and lose everything you put in? Do you continue and hope they are on a flush draw or have a bad kicker or are raising a straight draw. Either way you are guessing here and have set yourself up for a big loss or possibly a small win (since a worse hand isn't going to push it too far)

So instead of tossing it away for free, you are now in a tough position where you don't know where you stand. If you waited for a bigger hand preflop, you can make that raise with confidence knowing that you are most likely up against a worse kicker or a draw.

That isn't saying that AQ or better are the only hands I'll play. Again it is all about circumstances and most importantly, position. I would much rather play 98 or 87 than KJ... but only in late position when I know I see a cheap flop. Now it is all about implied odds and if I hit with these, I am going to know my hand is the best hand and I am only risking a small amount. Again, I'm not playing a guessing game here. Also since I don't play many hands, people have a hard time putting me on one of these when they hit.

There is a reason hands like QJ, KJ are called trouble hands and that is because if you hit, it is very difficult to know if you are ahead or not. When I am shoving lots of money into the pot, I want to know that I am most likely ahead. I also want to know that there are lots of possible hands out there that people would play that they would also call a large bet with. There is no point betting something when the only time you ever get called is when you have lost.

Sure, it's not the most exciting way to play poker but it is effective and minimizes the risk. Your winning sessions won't be as big but losing session will be greatly reduced. I don't mind losing to someone that hits a draw on the river. I hate it when they had me beat all the way.

 

[NeilPearson]

I thought at the bigger table limits you'd find better players, but I've yet to see that.

What kind of table limits do they have in Vegas?

They have just about everything in Vegas depending on where you want to play. Most smaller poker rooms on the strip like Harrah's or Imperial Palace will have $1/2 - $100 or $200 buy-in no limit and 2/4, 3/6, maybe 4/8 limit.

If you go to Mirage you have $3/6, 4/8, 5/10 limit and $200-400 buy-in no-limit on a regular basis. They most likely have $10/20 limit and some bigger buy-in no-limit games too... although I have never really checked since I don't have a bankroll to play that high.

Bellagio starts limit at $4/8 last time I checked and will spread just about anything like $1000/2000 blinds.

I've heard of $10k and $100k buy-in no limit games too but I don't know how regular they are. Basically I think if a tourist with a ton of money wants to say they have played with the big pros, they will throw a game together for him and gladly carve him up.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I have 3 names at PacificPoker.com and they are all up subtantially.

 

[gococksDJS]

I have 3 names at PacificPoker.com and they are all up subtantially.

What about your 3 names on PenilePoker.com ?

 

[naturaltan]

Sure you have to take some risk. Anytime you enter a hand you take risk. Educated risk though and in early position, you just don't have the information to know whether you are taking a risk with QJ or just foolishly throwing money away.

It comes down to expected value. If you play that hand 10,000 times under those circumstances, will you make money or lose money. I know that calling with QJ, KJ in early position is negative expected value.

Whether or not the cards both have paint or not is irrelevant. It is how likely you are to hit a flop and how likely your hand will be good if you do. Also, it is how likely you know your hand will be good if you hit. Lets say you play KJ in early position, hit your K and you bet. Now what happens if you are called or raised? If there was no preflop raise, there is a good chance you are looking at KQ. There is a slight chance you are looking at KT or K9 or worse though. Now you are set up for a tough decision and neither option is really good. Do you fold and lose everything you put in? Do you continue and hope they are on a flush draw or have a bad kicker or are raising a straight draw. Either way you are guessing here and have set yourself up for a big loss or possibly a small win (since a worse hand isn't going to push it too far)

So instead of tossing it away for free, you are now in a tough position where you don't know where you stand. If you waited for a bigger hand preflop, you can make that raise with confidence knowing that you are most likely up against a worse kicker or a draw.

That isn't saying that AQ or better are the only hands I'll play. Again it is all about circumstances and most importantly, position. I would much rather play 98 or 87 than KJ... but only in late position when I know I see a cheap flop. Now it is all about implied odds and if I hit with these, I am going to know my hand is the best hand and I am only risking a small amount. Again, I'm not playing a guessing game here. Also since I don't play many hands, people have a hard time putting me on one of these when they hit.

There is a reason hands like QJ, KJ are called trouble hands and that is because if you hit, it is very difficult to know if you are ahead or not. When I am shoving lots of money into the pot, I want to know that I am most likely ahead. I also want to know that there are lots of possible hands out there that people would play that they would also call a large bet with. There is no point betting something when the only time you ever get called is when you have lost.

Sure, it's not the most exciting way to play poker but it is effective and minimizes the risk. Your winning sessions won't be as big but losing session will be greatly reduced. I don't mind losing to someone that hits a draw on the river. I hate it when they had me beat all the way.

You are correct ... and I don't usually play these hands, but it was the last one and the missus was calling, so I thought, for $2, maybe I'll get a str8 draw on the flop ... I just happened to get better. I the flop had come up rags and someone put in a sizeable bet, I'm letting the hand go ... in fact, anything other than the flop I got and I'm letting the hand go.

I will say that every once in a while, I will play this hand in position for a str8 flop just to keep things interesting and not letting others know what hands I call on a normal basis. My personal opinion on this particular hand QJ is that I'd rather play it then a KQ as I'm much more assured that I'm losing with a QJ ... a KQ is only beat with an Ace kicker, but most play Aces/X on the tables I've seen.

Anyways ... just thought I'd share how my day started and how it hopefully end. If any of you play at PS, look me up and we'll have a tilt at one of the tables.

 

[NeilPearson]

You are correct ... and I don't usually play these hands, but it was the last one and the missus was calling, so I thought, for $2, maybe I'll get a str8 draw on the flop ... I just happened to get better. I the flop had come up rags and someone put in a sizeable bet, I'm letting the hand go ... in fact, anything other than the flop I got and I'm letting the hand go.

I will say that every once in a while, I will play this hand in position for a str8 flop just to keep things interesting and not letting others know what hands I call on a normal basis. My personal opinion on this particular hand QJ is that I'd rather play it then a KQ as I'm much more assured that I'm losing with a QJ ... a KQ is only beat with an Ace kicker, but most play Aces/X on the tables I've seen.

Anyways ... just thought I'd share how my day started and how it hopefully end. If any of you play at PS, look me up and we'll have a tilt at one of the tables.

I understand why you played it and I probably would have done the same, I was just addressing Largepkg when he said:

"This baffles me!

You're obviously the classic tight player but you have to take some risk. It's not often you look down and see paint on both."

 

[naturaltan]

I have 3 names at PacificPoker.com and they are all up subtantially.

3 names, why?

 

[Dale Mabry]

So people don't know I can play.