Specificty in training...the study I have been looking for.

**P-funk** · 08-19-2005, 12:50 PM

I finally found the study I have been looking for all this time when we were having debates on training for power and explosiveness. Lets put this baby to bed.

Quote:

McBride, J.M., Triplett-McBride, T., Davie, A., & Newton, R.U. (1999). A comparison of strength and power characteristics between power lifters, Olympic lifters, and sprinters. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 13 (1). 58-66.

HIGHTLIGHTS OF THE ARTICLE

PURPOSE:
To Compare groups of athletes known to perform distinct styles of training in order to compare three protocols of exercise.
1.) High force, slow velocity (powerlifting)
2.) High force, high velocity (weightlifting)
3.) Low force, high velocity (sprinting)

METHODS:
1.) 28 male subjects between the ages of 18 and 32
2.) Subjects were chosen on the basis of their being competitive as a powerlifter, weightlifter, or sprinter on a national level
3.) A control group was also utilized

ASSESSMENT:
1.) Vertical jump - Done with body weight, with 20 kg dumbbells in hand, and 40 kg dumbbells in hand

2.) 1 RM squat - Stance was self-selected, but had to be within set parameters assigned by the testers
- The bar had to be placed between the superior portion of the scapula and vertebra C-7
- The stance was constrained15 cm of the lateral portion of the subject’s deltoid
- Outward positioning of the toes up to 30º
- Jump squats with 30%, 60%, and 90% of 1 RM load with a recovery period of 10 minutes in between

3.) Body composition via skinfold measurements

4.) Vertical ground reaction forces (VGFR) used during the vertical jumps were recorded using a force plate mounted below the subject’s feet

RESULTS:

1.) Concerning Subject characteristics
o The powerlifters were significantly older than the sprinters and control groups
o The sprinters were significantly taller than the powerlifters and weightlifters
o The control group was significantly taller than the weightlifters
o No significant differences between groups in weight, percent body fat, or years of training

2.) Concerning Squat strength
o All test groups were significantly stronger in the squat than the control group
o The weightlifters were significantly stronger than the sprinters
o There was no significant difference in squatting strength between the weightlifters and powerlifters

3.) Concerning Vertical jumps
o Peak force was significantly higher in weightlifters and sprinters in comparison to the control group in all three loading conditions
o Peak force was significantly higher in powerlifters for the 20 and 40 kg load test in comparison to the control group
o Peak force was significantly higher in weightlifters in comparison to powerlifters in the body weight jump
o Peak force was significantly higher in weightlifters for the 20 and 40 kg load test in comparison to powerlifters and sprinters
o Peak velocity for the weightlifters and sprinters was significantly higher than for the control and powerlifter groups for all three load conditions
o Powerlifters exhibited significantly higher peak velocity for the 40 kg load test only in comparison to the control group
o Peak power was significantly higher in weightlifters, powerlifters, and sprinters in comparison to the control group for all loading conditions
o Peak power was significantly higher for the weightlifters in comparison to the powerlifters for all three loading conditions
o Peak power was significantly higher in the weightlifters compared to the sprinters for the 20 kg test
o Jump height was significantly higher in the weightlifter and sprinting groups in comparison to powerlifters and the control group for all three loading conditions
o Jump height was significantly higher in the powerlifting group in comparison to the control group for the 20 and 40 kg load tests

4.) Concerning the Jump squat test (30%, 60%, and 90% of 1 RM squat)
o Peak force was significantly higher in the powerlifting, weightlifting, and sprinting groups in comparison to the control group for all three loading conditions
o Peak force was significantly higher in weightlifters compared to powerlifters for the 30% and 60% load conditions, and higher than the sprinters for the 60% and 90% conditions
o Peak velocity was not significantly different between the powerlifters, weightlifters, sprinters, and controls for any of the load conditions
o Peak power was significantly higher in the weightlifting group compared to the powerlifters, sprinters, and controls in the 30% load condition
o Jump height was significantly higher in the sprinter group compared to the weightlifters, powerlifters, and controls in the 30% load condition
o Jump height was significantly higher in the weightlifters, sprinters, and control groups compared to the powerlifters in the 60% load condition
o Jump height was significantly higher in the sprinter group compared to the powerlifters and weightlifters in the 90% group
o Jump height was significantly higher in the control group compared to the powerlifters in the 90% load condition

DISCUSSION
· The powerlifters were as strong as the weightlifters, but scored significantly lower in tests for power and explosive performance
· The weightlifters were the most powerful of all the groups and was stronger than the sprinters
· There was a surprising lack of significant difference in leg strength between sprinters and powerlifters
· The weightlifters had significantly higher peak velocities, power outputs, and jump heights than the powerlifters
· One of the most striking findings was that peak power was significantly higher for the weightlifters in comparison to the other groups in the 30% of 1 RM jump squat
· Analysis of the biomechanical results of the jump squats showed that the weightlifters were both forceful and powerful, while the sprinters were not as forceful and powerful, but still achieved high movement velocities
· The data suggests that high force, slow speed movements are insufficient to stimulate improvements in muscle power, movement velocity, and jump height
· The data also suggests that high speed, low force movements (such as those done by sprinters) is insufficient to stimulate improvements in strength and peak power (as seen by the weightlifters)

-------------

This study certainly supports theories on the specificity of training. If you want to increase power, you must train with powerful movements. Strength is an important component, but is only part of the equation. You must have velocity as well. High force, slow velocity exercises will create high force, slow movements. High force, high velocity training (as seen in weightlifters) will create high power movements.

* Legion * · 08-19-2005, 12:54 PM

Good stuff. Thank you for posting this, this brings an intersting tidbit to the table of debate between the true measure of strength, powerlifting vs. weightlifting.

Yanick · 08-19-2005, 01:42 PM

good post bitch.

something to think about

**P-funk** · 08-19-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanick

good post bitch.

something to think about

That thread is reffering to speceficty as it applies to sports other than weightlifting or powerlifting as the only thing neccessary in these sports in maxilmal strength/power were as something like football or basketball etc..will require a variety of different strength (ie..speed strength, cardiovascular strength or endurance strength, maximal strength, etc....see Siff.). If one were training for a specific sport they would have to train for optimal strength (strength encompassing all the before mentioned types). If you recal our deabtes were soley on whether or not power training or olympic lifting was beneficial for an athlete and my biggest argument was that you are training your power through triple extension (ankle, knee, hip), a movement that occurs on all fields of play. I didn't post this study to claim that "only" doing the olympic lifts was the way to train for an athletic sport rather to show that it is a great tool to aid in an athletes program in addition to all the other sport specific training ideas I preach....rep work, balance, core, reactive, etc... I also posted it to emphasize the differences they are showing between powerlifters and weightlifters as I found it interesting.

Squaggleboggin · 08-19-2005, 02:06 PM

Very good post. Were the weightlifters bodybuilders or what? It mentioned that they were competing on a national level, so my guess would be that they're bodybuilders. I'm kind of surprised by some of the results. I wonder how olympic lifters would do in a test such as that one.

**P-funk** · 08-19-2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Very good post. Were the weightlifters bodybuilders or what? It mentioned that they were competing on a national level, so my guess would be that they're bodybuilders. I'm kind of surprised by some of the results. I wonder how olympic lifters would do in a test such as that one.

olympic lifting is reffered to as weightlifting. BB'er can't be tested in stuff like this since they aren't athletic. they would probably compare pretty poorly since they train so damn slow.

weightlifters= olympic lifters.

myCATpowerlifts · 08-19-2005, 02:20 PM

Basically,
olympic lifters > everyone.

Squaggleboggin · 08-19-2005, 02:20 PM

Okay, that's what I was thinking because I know many bodybuilders aren't very athletic. At first I thought they were just weightlifters in general, but there is no national level for people who just lift. Now I'm not very surprised with the test. Do olympic lifters typically train for only one or two exercises (for example, the clean and jerk or snatch)? Do they usually train like powerlifters with low reps and high weights to increase their maxes, or switch on and off to get explosive power and high weights? Just wondering...

**Dale Mabry** · 08-19-2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

olympic lifting is reffered to as weightlifting. BB'er can't be tested in stuff like this since they aren't athletic. they would probably compare pretty poorly since they train so damn slow.

weightlifters= olympic lifters.

That clears up 150,000 questions I had. I thought you were referring to Ronnie Coleman or some shit. I would have had to kill myself.

I am going to do some tests on Monday, after 5 days of no training, can't wait to see what happens.

**P-funk** · 08-19-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

That clears up 150,000 questions I had. I thought you were referring to Ronnie Coleman or some shit. I would have had to kill myself.

I am going to do some tests on Monday, after 5 days of no training, can't wait to see what happens.

I thought it was always understood that when people say weightlifters they are reffering to olympic lifting.

Yea, you should be pretty happy with your tests. I never tested anything to begin with so I have nothing to base it on but I can just tell that I am way faster than i have ever been.

ihateschoolmt · 08-19-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Okay, that's what I was thinking because I know many bodybuilders aren't very athletic. At first I thought they were just weightlifters in general, but there is no national level for people who just lift. Now I'm not very surprised with the test. Do olympic lifters typically train for only one or two exercises (for example, the clean and jerk or snatch)? Do they usually train like powerlifters with low reps and high weights to increase their maxes, or switch on and off to get explosive power and high weights? Just wondering...

Olympic lifters compete in both. You have to do both in a meet. They do low reps.

**P-funk** · 08-19-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Okay, that's what I was thinking because I know many bodybuilders aren't very athletic. At first I thought they were just weightlifters in general, but there is no national level for people who just lift. Now I'm not very surprised with the test. Do olympic lifters typically train for only one or two exercises (for example, the clean and jerk or snatch)? Do they usually train like powerlifters with low reps and high weights to increase their maxes, or switch on and off to get explosive power and high weights? Just wondering...

It depends on a lot of things like who the coach is, what country they are from, how much drugs they are on, what phase they are in (ie...deep offseason or pre-contest) etc...

Some guys do the lifts and then do a lot of assistance work....pulls, snatch to balance...etc...

Some guys do no assistance work like the russians typically only performed their snatches, clean and jerks and squats. No pulls stating that the trajectory of the bar on a pull is not exactly like it is on a clean or a snatch (which is true).

Some guys do no real upper body work

Some do like the polish national team deep in the offseason even benches

Reading Shane Hammon's training program he still deadlifts and overhead presses but I hear that Dragomir Ciroslan (his coach) no longer has him squat.

Basically they always are working on speed. Even the heavy max lift is still a speed/explosve lift.

A lot of the guys train 2 times a day (sometimes 3) for many days in a row. The Bulgarians have been known to log up to 20+ hours of training per week!!!

Mostly they all come in and start with the bar and slowly increase over many many many sets gradually getting heavier. Once they get up there if they feel good and it looks good and the coach says okay they add more and work higher. If they aren't feeling it they keep the weight down and perform more reps. It is really dependant on a lot of things. Jim Shmitz who used to be the american coach has talked about insinctive periodization like this.

The Monkey Man · 08-19-2005, 09:32 PM

This is why you should all buy a P-side shirt from Goal Getter -

I would be curious to know what the composition of the control group was...

I also scratched my head at this...
o Jump height was significantly higher in the powerlifting group in comparison to the control group for the 20 and 40 kg load tests

but...
o Jump height was significantly higher in the control group compared to the powerlifters in the 90% load condition

It seems like the powerlifters would accel in the 90% range no matter what,
but this proves to be false -

I can tell you after spending most of the summer avoiding deadlifts
and heavy core and leg work... (Hernia)

My overall strength has improved greatly with only a few weeks
of training around the olympic movements

Even working with training weights, I believe
my legs are showing new growth -

For my goal of working towards greater, more youthful performance
this has not only been fun and challenging... But effective, so far

* Legion * · 08-19-2005, 11:13 PM

P-Funk... this is making me sad.

**P-funk** · 08-20-2005, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by * Legion *

P-Funk... this is making me sad.

what is making you sad?

**P-funk** · 08-20-2005, 05:06 AM

Quote:

It seems like the powerlifters would accel in the 90% range no matter what,
but this proves to be false -

the powerlifters were worse in the 90% range than even the control group! they were only better in the 20% range.

Squaggleboggin · 08-20-2005, 10:03 AM

A while ago when I first started reading up on powerlifting, it was always described as an explosive sport. They must have been talking about dynamic days with Westside or something, because it doesn't seem to me that a powerlifter has any sort of speed in a lift. There's no argument that olympic lifters have a lot more speed and power.

The Monkey Man · 08-20-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

the powerlifters were worse in the 90% range than even the control group! they were only better in the 20% range.

Fags! -

...

-

**P-funk** · 08-20-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

A while ago when I first started reading up on powerlifting, it was always described as an explosive sport. They must have been talking about dynamic days with Westside or something, because it doesn't seem to me that a powerlifter has any sort of speed in a lift. There's no argument that olympic lifters have a lot more speed and power.

powerlifting is all about strength. I am not knocking it. It is fantastic and I love to watch it (I like raw contest more than the other ones because I don't like the bench shirts and squat suits. Of the three the deadlift is the most amazing thing to watch) and I admire what they do. But, it is not really explosive like olympic lifting is. They are to completely different sports and to completly different types of strength. I don't think one is better than the other. I do think that olympic lifters are more athletic than most powerlifters as this study is suggesting as well. As far as a sport both are great in my opinion. As a method of training as far as athletics are concerned both are great and each one has their place. Like I said they are different types of strength and optimal strength is required to be a great athlete not just explosive speed strength or maximum effor strength.

08-19-2005, 01:42 PM	#3
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,819	good post bitch. something to think about
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,819	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

08-19-2005, 02:06 PM	#5
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Very good post. Were the weightlifters bodybuilders or what? It mentioned that they were competing on a national level, so my guess would be that they're bodybuilders. I'm kind of surprised by some of the results. I wonder how olympic lifters would do in a test such as that one.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-19-2005, 02:20 PM	#8
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Okay, that's what I was thinking because I know many bodybuilders aren't very athletic. At first I thought they were just weightlifters in general, but there is no national level for people who just lift. Now I'm not very surprised with the test. Do olympic lifters typically train for only one or two exercises (for example, the clean and jerk or snatch)? Do they usually train like powerlifters with low reps and high weights to increase their maxes, or switch on and off to get explosive power and high weights? Just wondering...
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-19-2005, 09:32 PM	#13
The Monkey Man Magical Apelikemenace Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 13,906 Photos: 38	This is why you should all buy a P-side shirt from Goal Getter - I would be curious to know what the composition of the control group was... I also scratched my head at this... o Jump height was significantly higher in the powerlifting group in comparison to the control group for the 20 and 40 kg load tests but... o Jump height was significantly higher in the control group compared to the powerlifters in the 90% load condition It seems like the powerlifters would accel in the 90% range no matter what, but this proves to be false - I can tell you after spending most of the summer avoiding deadlifts and heavy core and leg work... (Hernia) My overall strength has improved greatly with only a few weeks of training around the olympic movements Even working with training weights, I believe my legs are showing new growth - For my goal of working towards greater, more youthful performance this has not only been fun and challenging... But effective, so far
	Have Problems?... Chances are its due to overpopulation Save The Oceans, Save the Planet, Save Your Family, Save Yourself!

08-20-2005, 10:03 AM	#17
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	A while ago when I first started reading up on powerlifting, it was always described as an explosive sport. They must have been talking about dynamic days with Westside or something, because it doesn't seem to me that a powerlifter has any sort of speed in a lift. There's no argument that olympic lifters have a lot more speed and power.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-19-2005, 12:54 PM	#2
* Legion * Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Suburb of Chicago, Il. USA Posts: 711 Photos: 2	Good stuff. Thank you for posting this, this brings an intersting tidbit to the table of debate between the true measure of strength, powerlifting vs. weightlifting.

08-19-2005, 02:20 PM	#7
myCATpowerlifts Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The lone star state Posts: 6,261 Photos: 2	Basically, olympic lifters > everyone.

08-19-2005, 11:13 PM	#14
* Legion * Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Suburb of Chicago, Il. USA Posts: 711 Photos: 2	P-Funk... this is making me sad.

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